What if everyone had voted in the EU referendum?

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Britain’s vote to leave the European Union (EU) has prompted a great deal of speculation about whether the outcome really does represent the will of the entire electorate. Citizens and commentators have asserted that the result may well have been different had various groups of potential voters gone to the polls in greater numbers. If only more_____ (fill in your choice of young people, ethnic minorities, Londoners, Scots, university graduates, etc.) had voted, then Remain would have won. At least that’s the argument.

But why restrict this discussion about increased turnout to specific groups? Let’s dare to be democratic—what would have happened if all eligible voters had exercised their franchise by casting a vote in the referendum? Would Britain have voted for Brexit or would the country instead have opted to remain in the EU?

To answer this question, we need to put our ‘nerd hats’ on for a moment and use data gathered in our Essex Continuous Monitoring EU referendum survey. As we already know, at the referendum Leave won 51.89 per cent of the vote and Remain won 48.11 per cent. The Electoral Commission reports that the overall turnout was 72.21 percent. These figures imply that 34.73 per cent of the entire electorate voted to Remain. But what about the people who did not go to the polls?

A question in our post-referendum survey asked those who did not vote how they would have voted had they gone to the polls. It turns out that 39.1 per cent would have voted Remain. Given that the Electoral Commission’s records indicate that 27.79 per cent actually did not turn out, this would have given an additional 10.87 percentage points to Remain (27.79 x .391).

But the story does not end there. Another 32.2 per cent of the respondents in our survey who did not vote said, after the referendum, they ‘did not know’ how they would have voted had they have gone to their local polling station. This amounts to 8.95 per cent of the entire electorate (27.79 x .322). To determine how these people would have voted, we use a question in the pre-referendum survey (conducted on June 19th and 20th—just a few days before the event) which asked them how they were going to vote. Of those who ‘didn’t know’, 53.1 per cent reported after the referendum survey that they opted for Remain.

Using this number to estimate how many of the 8.95 per cent of the electorate would have voted Remain suggests 4.75 per cent (8.95 x .531) would have done so. Now, if we combine these calculations (34.73+10.87+4.75) then we are left with the finding that if everybody had voted at the referendum then 50.35 per cent would have voted Remain, a narrow win but still a different result from that which emerged in reality.

Remainers, however, should not get too excited. This figure is still not conclusive evidence that Remain has majority support across the electorate as a whole. Rather, the 50.35% result is only an estimate of Remain’s strength and one that fails to account for the uncertainty in the survey data which are drawn from a sample of eligible voters. As always, it is important to respect sampling uncertainty in survey data.

To do so, we compute a standard 95 per cent confidence interval or an ‘uncertainty boundary’ which tells us how varied the results would have to be in order to be 95 per cent sure that the actual outcome would be inside the boundary. Our calculations suggest that Remain’s strength in the electorate would have varied from 48.65 per cent to 52.05 per cent. So, even if everyone had gone to the polls Remain could still have lost.

How likely would a Remain loss have been? Although we cannot be certain what would have happened if everyone had voted, we can gain additional insights into the likelihood of a Remain victory. Imagine conducting many (one million!) referendums with a random component distributed about a mean of 50.35 per cent with a standard deviation of 0.85 per cent (a measure of how variable our survey estimates were of Remain’s strength). Assuming a normal or ‘Bell shaped’ distribution for these contests, the one million simulated referendum results are shown in Figure 1. Remain’s total is greater than Leave’s in 66.03 per cent of these contests and, Leave wins 33.97 per cent of them. So, had everyone voted then the odds of a Remain victory would have been substantial but not overwhelming (1.94 to one).

finally

Of course, UK voters did not have one million chances to vote to stay in the EU.  They had one, and a majority of those who cast a ballot opted to leave.  While Brexit likely does not reflect the sentiment of the entire electorate the result of the referendum reflects how democracy works. This is a longstanding constitutional principle and it was honored on June 23rd.  If you don’t participate, your voice is not heard.

This discussion of what ‘might have been’ has led some disappointed Remainers (and political movements) to demand a second EU referendum. Some MPs have called for Parliament to exert its constitutional power and reject the result entirely. Still others have suggested that Prime Minister May and her Government should ‘slow walk’ exit negotiations with the EU, by failing to invoke Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty and so subvert the Brexit decision with bureaucratic inertia. The success of these efforts remains to be seen and their democratic bona fides are sure to be challenged.

Written by Harold Clarke, School of Economic, Political and Policy Sciences University of Texas at Dallas. Professor Matthew Goodwin, senior fellow UK in a Changing Europe and Paul Whiteley, Department of Government University of Essex. This piece was co published with The Conversation.

Disclaimer:
The views expressed in this analysis post are those of the authors and not necessarily those of the UK in a Changing Europe initiative.

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  • hughsansom

    A critical (and unanswered) question in this essay: Was the post-referendum survey taken after it was clear that the vote had “Remain” had lost? In other words, was the post-referendum survey taken after eligible but non-voting Britons had had a chance to reconsider in light of events?

    • Robin

      Totally irrelevant. Whoever didn’t vote, did NOT vote. We can speculate from now till doomsday on what might have been the result if little old ladies with cross bred King Carles/Cavalier spaniels had not been allowed to vote or babies that were teething had been allowed to vote. There was a clear and definite rule….any person domiciled in the UK over the age of 18 could vote. Those expats living in an EU country who were domiciled in the UK and chose to keep their nationality and were over 18 could also vote provided they had not been out of the UK for more than 15 years. Those that did not vote were assumed to be either not bothered or couldn’t care less. No in betweens, either you did or you didn’t. If you couldn’t make it ON THE DAY through illness that is just tough luck. If you weren’t going to be able to make it and knew before hand, you could elect a proxy or do any of the following: a) Go into an advance voting place where you will be given a declaration form to complete and your voting papers; or b) Complete and post an application for special declaration voting papers to your Returning Officer. They will send your voting papers and declaration; or c) Apply for voting papers by fax, e-mail or telephone from your Returning Officer. That is final. No more if’s and but’s. No speculating. Done, full stop!

      • DaveWigan

        Exactly Robin.

  • Martin Cahn

    I made a rough back of the envelope estimate to answer the same question looking at the relationship of age to voting intentions and turnout a week before you published this and have only just found your analysis, so my estimate is completely independent of yours.

    I basically looked at the ONS estimates from Census data corrected for 2015, and the rough turnout by age and vote for remain by age (both available from publicly available polls – Ashcroft and YouGov) and then tried to produce a number voting by age and number non voting by age. I used the data for the proportion of foreign workers by age quoted by Rowntree (from ONS) and assumed that this applied to all non-voters by age (although of course foreign workers include some who are Commonwealth citizens and have the vote). This gave me figures for numbers voting by age and numbers non-voting. I simply guessed that the number of foreigners in the over 65s was 2% of the total – I suspect that this was a bit low, but number of workers obviously doesn’t give that figure. I then assumed that non-voters would vote the same way as their age group and looked at the result. I came to a proportion of, believe it or not, 50.3% Remain and 49.7% Leave. So, in a circular argument I admit, I can say that your data seem to confirm my assumption that non-voting people in a particular age group would vote in the same way as their peers who did vote, and my data seem to confirm the validity of your results.

    I have been commenting my results, and simply say that this suggests that the opinion in the electorate is 50:50 (although your analysis suggests that it is, indeed, more likely to slightly favour Remain), and that in an advisory referendum this is a valid factor to take into account when considering the way forward after the result.

    In addition, of course, it is clear from the trends that a majority of those who did not have the opportunity to vote, e.g. under 18s, EU citizens resident in Britain, would have voted Remain. So while the referendum result was a small majority (which would not have been sufficient in most EU countries to affect a constitutional matter), the balance of opinion in UK residents is clearly in favour of Remain.

    Whether MPs will wish to ignore their constitutional duty to do the best for all constituents whether or not they voted for them or could vote remains to be seen if invoking article 50 is put to Parliament.

    • Robin

      You wasted a lot of time on speculating about your figures. 38% of the voting electorate did not vote. Full stop. Whether they wish they had done so, or speculating about which way they would have voted or if under 18’s had been able to vote etc, etc, is totally irrelevant. In a sentence…they did NOT vote and no amount of speculation with figures will alter that fact. It really is that simple. Got it?

      • Martin Cahn

        This was written ages ago now but the conclusion was confirmed by Kings College. My main point was that this referendum was advisory and it seems absurd to leave when it is clear that there is hardly a simple majority in favour. In the end it has resulted in the capture of government by a far right clique representing a small minority of the electorate and triggered a wave of xenophobia. That should send you into a state of panic.

        • PAD

          Kings College..partnered by Common Purpose.
          mm.Says it all.

          • Martin Cahn

            Just because one Dept does international leadership training has no bearing on the work of the unit in King’s College responsible for this analysis. If you approach data with this cynicism you will never learn anything. In any case it appears that Common Purpose is placing King’s College students in Kuala Lumpur, hardly in the EU.,..

          • PAD

            Kings College no doubt gets its legitimacy from somewhere….unlike Common Purpose.

        • Bunny-Gee

          David Cameron and others in the government repeatedly stated the referendum was binding. It was also WRITTEN in their propaganda leaflet (which cost us £9m) that it would be binding. If that doesn’t make it binding, I’m a banana.

          • Martin Cahn

            The material advising about the legal status says it is advisory and the act authorising it says nothing about it imposing an obligation, which it would have said for a constitutional issue like this. Cameron’s comment is a promise binding on him ethically ( but not legally). But not on his successor. In effect it is about as legally binding as the £350 million. Why are you not protesting about that? Maybe you are indeed a banana (curved?).

          • DaveWigan

            Now I’m a Banana coz I’m curved. I’d say more like an orange, bright and juicy lol.

            Yes those good old Parasites, the Lawyers.

            I agree, thick Cameron should have ensured it was legally binding. The stupidity of the man is amazing. Same fella couldn’t even get a deal with the EU, they took the piss out of him, so I’m not surprised about the legalities. Strange how the little man a remainer calls the vote because he thought he’d win with a landslide and didn’t so cut and run. Where is he now. We are still paying his security while he invests in foreign Banks to avoid tax. The remainer is a Scum Bag, your right.

            I also didn’t agree with Britain’s airstrikes in Syria, hours after Cameron won overwhelmingly to authorise military action. It might be Legal, but really its just wrong. Does that make me racist. Well I don’t think so.

            And his other mate, Blair, opps another Remainer/wanna be EU president, seemingly manages to LEGALLY evade war crimes. Yeah, its good all this legal stuff eh.

            But one fact doesn’t change. We voted to leave, and the politicians should take great Note of that fact.

            I suppose you will call me what you want, as actually your guessing is wrong, but not to worry, its rather fun.

          • DaveWigan

            And I think they are Sour Grapes Bunny lol

        • DaveWigan

          Advisory lol. Oh dear what next.

          When I see a voting slip with Vote ….Labour. or Vote Conservative……….. And the Government of the day is voted out, but then say, but it was only advisory, imagine that. Errr but, we lost, but it was only advisory so we’ll stay in government, tell the Queen we aren’t moving lol.

          • Martin Cahn

            A general election is not the same as a referendum. A referendum, constitutionally, is a consultation of the people. A general election elects people to take decisions on our behalf. That is the very nature of our parliamentary democracy. Sovereign power resides in Parliament and it is they who make decisions – that did not change within the EU. Parliament considers the results of referendums but takes the decision themselves in the best interests of the country unless specifically stated otherwise in the Act setting up the referendum (for instance the AV referendum included an obligation to impose this system if there had been a vote in favour). You and I may disagree on what that best decision is, but that is the basis of our democracy. The referendum does show the country pretty evenly divided, and that is a factor parliament has to take into account, among other factors such as the views of business (since they provide the wealth which allows us all to survive), changes in attitudes since the referendum and the terms of leaving offered, the impact on our own population who want to travel, and the ability to influence the policies of our neighbours with whom we trade (an area where we have greatly increased sovereignty in the EU). The fact that there was a smidgin of a majority of opinion in favour of remain as shown by King’s College’s very accurate survey (much more reliable than traditional opinion polls) is a relevant point to take into account. In most European countries, a referendum on a constitutional matter on an issue like this would require a supermajority (e.g. 60-75% voting in favour of change) to be considered relevant, and where the country is federal (which in effect our country now is with regional parliaments), then they would need to approve any change too. Such a criterion was nowhere near met in the Brexit referendum. A similar requirement of a certain level of support (as I remember 40% of the electorate) was imposed on the Scottish independence referendum, but due to pressures within the Tory party, it was unfortunately omitted in the EU referendum act.

          • DaveWigan

            So in that case , the original referendum in 1975 was also advisory, and not legal. Either way you can’t have it both ways. BUT, this terminology , “advisory” has only been suggested since you lost. Your looking for get-out clause. No one anywhere was told it was advisory lmao

          • Martin Cahn

            Yes exactly. The 1975 was to consult the British people and was not legally binding. The comment on the Wikipedia page on this referendum says: “The referendum result was not legally binding, however, it was widely accepted that the vote would be the final say on the matter and would be politically blinding on all future Westminster Parliaments.” That is the same as the 2016 referendum. The result of the 2016 referendum was very close and views can change. Parliament is sovereign and can change its mind. I would like it to – especially if there is a clear change of opinion which is what is now indicated by opinion polls. You would prefer if it didn’t change its mind whatever the public now thinks. That is your right, but please don’t complain about Remainers’ comments on this – they have an argument that can perfectly well be presented.

      • Alan Smart

        It makes the difference that ypu can only claim what actually occured leave can claim to be the will of 37.5% of the electorate, not that it is the will of the people. There is absolutely no evidence to support that statement.

        • Bunny-Gee

          And if Remain had won then it would have been “the will of [a lower percentage] of the electorate, not that is (sic) the will of the people”. So, your point is, exactly? A question based upon your own elaborations, not mine, but reasonable elaborations which extrapolate in the Leave vote’s favour you will, doubtless, concur..

          • Martin Cahn

            The Leave team were the ones that wanted to change the status quo., They should have to demonstrate that there is sufficient dissatisfaction to necessitate that we take this action. Remain’s only obligation is to demonstrate that this is a sufficiently false conclusion not to proceed with change. If you look at my other posting below, I explain that a referendum is a consultation, not direct making of legislation, so the concept of ‘will of the people’ is totally false. It is the decision of the Crown in Parliament. In our constitution, it is Parliament that is sovereign.

    • DaveWigan

      You have no clue in reality do you. What a load of clap trap lol. Guess what you like. We had a vote. It was leave. Get over it mate.

      • Martin Cahn

        Trading insults is the last refuge of the scoundrel (to adapt a saying).

        • DaveWigan

          You started that with a typical leftie crack, implying I maybe a “borderline” racist.
          Does that mean if you or anyone does a second take on a 16,17,18 years old then of course, they must be “borderline” paedophiles. Fact is, its nothing of the sort. So lets not use general borderline terminology.

  • Graham

    I think some of the more fundamental questions that should be asked are those regarding the legality of the outcome, especially in the light of the fraudulent claims expressed by the leave campaign, they were outrageous lies and certainly affected the outcome.
    When was a political party allowed to tell such blatant lies and the press allowed to print such outlandish stories? I thought the press were bound by enforceable standards? Those elected representatives are surely breaking Parliamentary rules? Doesn’t anybody have any integrity anymore?

    • Mark Adams

      A bit late on this but what about all the Remain lies, which have proven to be false?

      • walkinthepark77

        What were the remain lies?

        • Robin

          Where would you like us to start? Get hold of the booklet that was circulated by Cameron’s government at a cost of £9 million of taxpayers money and look through it and point to all the things that have happened that they said would happen….there’s not many because most were lies – your word, not mine. I prefer speculation and conjecture from both sides. No one could actually lie because no one could tell what would happen in either case. It is a 2 door syndrome, where we will NEVER know what would have happened if we had gone through the other door. We can speculate, but we will never know!

          • Martin Cahn

            Most of the predicted impacts are coming true – as most economists had predicted over a period of time. The main prediction was a reduction of expected GDP over a period of 10 years or more of up to 10%. The way financial and car firms are now planning to leave the UK that seems accurate.

          • DaveWigan

            That’s rubbish once again. The Germans should think twice too. The day of luxury Germans cars around our street are probably and hopeful over.

            The idea that its jobs elsewhere – doesn’t exist. Nissan has invested billions in Sunderland, training generations of skilled workers in advanced productivity methods. Sunderland produces more cars per worker than any other factory in Europe. It would take a huge investment and several years for Nissan to replicate this workforce elsewhere in Europe.

            In future, manufacturing will increasingly be done by robots, and this is another reason why Nissan would be less likely to leave the UK. The OECD ranks the UK below every other country in Europe for employment protections. British workers are easier to lay off than workers in Germany, France, Slovakia or Poland. It is cheaper to maintain a skilled workforce that can be easily downsized than it is to build new factories in more heavily regulated EU countries.

            And when our auto industry does move, it will go not to the EU, but to North Africa. Morocco is close to Europe and offers even more generous tax breaks to companies that move south. Renault has factories in Tangier and Casablanca, and recently announced a further billion-dollar investment in the country, while Peugeot-Citroën has invested $630m in a new Moroccan plant. By 2020, a fifth of France’s cars will be made in Morocco. Would it be a good thing if the UK undercut Morocco on subsidies, tax breaks, environmental regulation, wages and employment rights?

            Investing heavily in the car industry may also represent a bad deal for the wider economy. Long-term trends, especially among the young, point to a decline in car-buying, but record numbers of new cars are being sold on cheap finance deals called personal contract plans (PCPs). In 2016 alone, British households borrowed £31.6bn to buy new cars on these PCP deals, which constitute the fastest-growing element in a huge upsurge of consumer debt that has led to repeated warnings from the Bank of England. Lease cars are sold after 3 years. I also think quite wrongly that the Tories have now decided to scrap all diesel car sales and this doesn’t inspire confidence. It has nothing to do with Brexit.

            When governments make terrible decisions, their successors in office should not be embarrassed about reversing them. So Wednesday’s announcement that new petrol and diesel car sales will be banned by 2040 in order to improve the quality of our air is not inherently outrageous. The original sin lies at the door of the Labour government, which heavy-handedly encouraged consumers to buy diesel vehicles more than 15 years ago. Financial incentives were deployed to boost sales of what turned out to be a relatively dirty, unhealthy mode of transport. Who should pick up the bill now that it turns out that encouragement was misguided?

            The answer, apparently, is drivers themselves. For the Treasury will not back a scrappage scheme. This is a palpable injustice. Brexit is a cop out mate. Don’t fall into that trap.

          • Martin Cahn

            Diesels were originally promoted due to the better fuel economy, but have become undesired due to the impact of pollution. The EU has just signed a trade agreement with Japan. The question is not what will happen to existing models, but where investment will go when new models are introduced. We can expect more cars to be produced in Japan and exported direct to the EU. We can expect some car plants to withdraw from the UK market. I see no decline in car buying yet – but it may well occur if we enter recession. Then our car industry will be dependent on exports, but if our main market, the EU, is closed, the prospects don’t look good. It already looks like investment in the cars of the future, which now appear to be electric, is being directed to continental Europe.

          • Alan Smart

            You havent actually said what the remain campaign lied about.0

          • Robin

            Did you not read the booklet sent out by the government to every household?

            How about…’More than 3 million jobs in Britain are linked to exports to the European Union.’

            The original number came from a paper developed by the pro-EU Britain in Europe group in 2000 – 15 years ago. The Remain campaign has claimed it does not use the figure, but here it is, in the booklet! The economist who wrote it, Dr Martin Weale, dismissed it as “pure Goebbels” and added: “In many years of academic research, I cannot recall such a willful distortion of the facts” in relation to how the number has been used since.

            Or how about….’EU cooperation makes it easier to keep criminals and terrorists out of the UK.’

            The EU’s own border agency Frontex has warned that lack of coherent migration policy across the 28 member-state bloc has led to “a risk that some persons representing a security threat to the EU may be taking advantage of this situation… there is clearly a risk that persons representing a security threat maybe entering the EU”. As the UK is part of the EU that means that persons representing a security threat, such as terrorists, could also be entering the UK.

            Let me know if you want more!

          • Alan Smart

            Robin you are making an eroneous supposition. All of these things are becoming facts now, not scares. The timing was admittedly wrong but nonetheless the predictions are coming true.

          • J Rice

            Totally agree Alan, timing is everything. ‘Help’ from BoE and not triggering article 50 day after referendum, as DC said he would, has delayed the effect of Remain’s predictions. But 18 months later, sadly one by one they are all becoming reality.

          • DaveWigan

            Just read the lies from Cameron in the booklet by the Tory Government. Scaremongering like before in 1975. I was young, I trusted them then, but not now.

          • John Davis

            We haven’t actually left yet and the £ took a big hit pushing inflation and prices up, we are all already worse off, after Brexit that will multiply, but you carry on with your la la land delusions.

          • DaveWigan

            John, the economy is suffering due to lack of Leadership, not Brexit. May is a remainer. Shes a weak leader not the right person to negotiate anything. Irony, Corbyn was a lever all his life. Deep down he knows this, but he is also aware that the Parliamentary Labour party, is still full of Blairights, and he needs them to stay in charge and keep the Party united.

          • DaveWigan

            I’m still looking out for Godzilla. Apparently he was seen 20 miles out of Blackpool.

          • John Davis

            A recent study by the IFS says after Brexit we will be £15B a year worse off.

          • DaveWigan

            Don’t believe any jargon you read John.

          • Martin Cahn

            If we ignore expert advice, we only have ourselves to blame when things go wrong.

          • DaveWigan

            Expert…..LMAO

          • alan851603

            Yes, but what were the “lies”? (Mark Adam’s word, not walkinthepark) You’ve had 9 months now to dig them out…

      • John Davis

        Care to name any? Economy will bit hit – it is. We will lose NHS staff – we have.

        • DaveWigan

          Well John, The Common Market was all about Free Trade. Now it wants to become a EU Block with its own army. Russia will not respond well to that after last times escapade in WW2. Charles de Gaulle continually blocked Harold Wilsons attempts to join, and it was only in 1969 when the he steeped down that we were finally allowed to join this club under Ted Heath a Tory. I have no idea why a man who sort asylum here during the war would be so vengeful to our country at the time, but he was, and constantly. Maybe its the same old tale, if you can’t have it, you want it more. It was Britain’s first nationwide referendum in 1975. The decision to join the EEC was taken by Edward Heath’s government in 1973, but Labour’s manifesto promised a referendum on Britain’s ongoing membership.

          AND The question facing voters was, “Do you think the UK should stay in the European Community (Common Market)?” Britons were thus divided into Yes and No camps, as opposed to today’s ‘Leave’ and ‘Remain’. I was young, I voted to remain. I have owned property in Spain, and I have travelled the world for what its worth. I did vote to leave, because Democracy is at stake here. I am sorry to say, but the EU Parliament is not democratic.
          Younger Tory voters may raise an eyebrow at footage of the then leader of the opposition Margaret Thatcher arguing passionately in favour of Britain remaining in Europe. Yes, you should raise more than your eyebrows. Remember, Corbyn was a life long LEAVER. Even Bob Geldoff now wants to leave, not that his opinion is any better than mine. And one more thing, it was Tony Blair why started privatisation of the NHS, and his Twin, Cameron continued with it. It was Tony Blair who brought in Atos, and the Tories have continued it. We have been duped by the Elites for decades mate. Corbyn reluctantly now says he wants to remain. Deep down I believe he’s lying now. I say, lets take back control of major decisions and laws. Lets take our over fished waters back. And let us vet all who want to live here, like all other normal countries do, and of course, lets look after genuine migrants in need like we have always done, but lets also be aware, we are the largest most populated country in the world, next to Japan, and wild life and the environment is also important for generations to come. I am not racists, but I am concerned about muslim immigration ,and sharia law and I think any sensible person should be.

          • Martin Cahn

            You say you are not racist, but you definitely give the impression of being racist. However since you are worried about Muslim immigration – you should note that Muslim immigration of EU citizens is minimal – a few from Bulgaria where there is a Turkish minority of about half a million – all very secular Muslims – and from Poland where there is a native population of between 4000 and 8000 Tatars who are totally integrated – if you have come across any among Polish immigrants you will not have been aware of it. The Muslim immigrant populations in France and Germany tend to stay put – very few immigrate to Britain. Leaving the EU will do nothing to reduce Muslim immigration – indeed it may increase as we replace the workers lost by leaving the EU by increased immigration from poor Muslim countries. If this is your main motivation, leaving the EU is shooting yourself in the foot.

          • DaveWigan

            Islam is not a race, so cut that out Martin. Anyone can be a muslim.
            I know a muslim guy Ali Macmood who has 4 Asian wives and in his own words a white wife. They are all muslims. Do I agree with Polygamy? NO…… Do you?
            Does that make me a racist? I know another muslim young man who openly admits to enjoying sex with white women, but is instant he will bring his bride to be from Bangladesh.

            I agree Muslim immigration from the EU is minimal. I don’t agree we need more muslims to do their jobs lol. How on earth do you work that out.

            I believe in a points system so we can vet all people from all over the world, not just muslims from coming here IF we really do actually need to increase the workforce in specialised areas.

            I don’t agree with Merkels decision to import hundreds of thousands of immigrants en mass., because she states they need young workers to support the old. Absolutely wrong. immigrants also get old, so that model is unsustainable in the long run. Population in general doesn’t need to keep growing, and that in reality must have an upper limit considering we are the 2nd MOST DENSELY populated Large Island in the world, next to Japan. Do you want the UK to become a concrete jungle for your grandchildren? Also doesn’t Wildlife have a right to exist. We are pushing more wildlife into towns because we are building in their habitat. We are seriously short of Bee’s because we are building in their meadowland. Now I know your not think Martin, so there’s really no need to debate using the race card, and the new bigot card with me.
            By the way, I’m ex Fire Service. I attended an incident in 1979, as a very young green Fireman. When we got there it was a young girl on Fire. Yes, muslims had set her alight. So please don’t ever ever call me a bigot or racist again just because I cannot stand that religion. 40 years on, I still think about the horrendous death she was put through, and sometime have nightmares about it.

            Incidently Spain had 25% youth unemployment at the time. Why were they not offered jobs and free housing? and in August 2017, the seasonally adjusted youth unemployment rate in Spain was at 38.7 percent. Yes the EU works very well !!

            Please Stick to the debate rather than insults Martin.

            Schengen to some degree gives us some control you are right, but the long term goal from the EU is to get rid of it.
            Just as the long term goal is to eventually bring Britain into the Euro.

          • Martin Cahn

            I rest my case.

          • DaveWigan

            More of HEAD CASE eh lol

          • DaveWigan

            What have I said that give the impression of being racist Martin?

          • Martin Cahn

            If this is not evident to you, then I am sorry, but you have a problem.

          • DaveWigan

            Martin, and I thought you were a smart guy, if this is the best you can do..”If this is not evident to you, then I am sorry, but you have a problem”

            I thought I would wait and see what drives you to misinterpreting the word racist, the most over used word on the planet by the Neo Liberals on the Left these days. If you can’t win the debate by facts, you turn to the race card, or other means, may of whom, not you of course, then turn the violence. We’ve seen it in America, and we’ve seen it in Australia.
            Well for the record, my Partner has Asian children of mixed race, and the eldest lad, in his early 30’s is Gay, and happily living with his Partner in Manchester, who in the past has joked with me, stating he’s had more women than me, which was probably true, and we had a laugh about that. I am also Uncle to mixed race children from part African decent, and they are all beautiful. So I ask again, how does anything I say translate to “hating” any race ? You see Martin, is it not you that appears to have a problem. Religions represent ALL races. I’m not a religious person, and not keen to see SKY DADDIES, from any quarter involved in politics, but we all know it isn’t the case, especially here. I have though a right to be concerned about the environment, the fact that so many animals are slaughtered in brutal ways due to Religion, not RACE, though in some cases that me be evident too. Human being can be so cruel, and our wildlife also has a right to exist, do you not agree, yet if its not Tories slaughtering foxes for fun, it’s socialist building everywhere and anywhere, with no regard to nature, meadowland, Bees are being lost by the millions, and when we’ve finally built you’re Concrete Jungle Martin, were does that leave the environment. When I was a kid, we had green fields where I live, no Wigan is more or less joined on the Manchester on one side, and West Lancs is gradually building more new housing on the other side, we are almost joined on the Southport, with no break in between. We are at 66 million now, imagine another 20 million, all the extra sewerage, all the extra, water we need to supply, lets hope it rains more, because we’ll surely need more reservoirs, and more schools and more hospitals, more rubbish and landfill, and more CARBON. And on top of that, the possibility of a certain religion, having far more say in general politics, just the thing Colonel Gaddaffi called for before his death, when he announced all muslims to rise, up, get into the Europeans political systems, and boy are they rising. And all you can say, is, “your racist” I get the feeling though Mr Cahn, This is exactly what you want, RIGHT?

          • Martin Cahn

            David, you clearly have a thing about Muslim immigration and blame the EU for that, when it is something that is almost entirely within the control of the government. If you read through your responses it is clear that you have confused the roles of the EU with the roles of our Government and are motivated by, if not racial hatred, at least a form of deep animosity to Muslims. But my question is simple, why does your animosity bear down on the EU when it is your hatred of Muslims, that appears to be your major motivating factor. We are only obliged to accept EU citizens, and not non-EU citizens. Our response to the refugee crisis has been pitiful, but that is our right under EU regulations. The real question that the article that you are responding to is asking is what was the actual opinion of people at the time of the referendum, and it seems to be that there was no majority opinion on leaving the EU, but that differential turnout was the reason for the close result. You can take the view that whatever was the opinion, the result should matter for evermore, but if opinion changes, which it now appears to be doing quite rapidly, you risk being out of step. You seem to want to form political opinions on the basis of scapegoats and dislike of what you see as foreign elites. I want a multicultural open society with all the richness that presents. We won’t agree on that. It represents a basic difference in values which will be difficult to bridge.

        • DaveWigan

          We have 12000 more nurses under this conservative government, yet it is still not enough. The more people you have using, but in many cases these days abusing a system, the less likely we are to have a good efficient system. The system is flawed top down, far too many chiefs, and not enough well trained, up for the challenge Indians. The neo Liberals run the whole show here, because they are the fat cats benefiting. On the other hand, we have imported, and Labour has, 10 million more people in their open door, anyone can come here policy. Little wonder the system is breaking down. Logic states, it can’t work. It seriously be bankrupt as a privately run business.

      • DaveWigan

        Correct

    • Bunny-Gee

      Even with everyman and his dog on your side and despite the Remain side’s constant and consistent deceptions, you lost. Get over it. I’m LOVING it. 🙂

      • John Davis

        Loving being the reason inflation is up, we are bottom of the G7 for economic growth, race hate is up, the NHS are losing staff due to the vote……… who actually won? Certainly not the UK? The UK lost.

        • DaveWigan

          Rubbish. The NHS was doomed when Mr Blair the war monger started privatising it it. Nurses are leaving in some cases, and yes some Nurses are coming in to take their places, but a health system doesn’t just need nurses, its needs all sorts on very qualified ancillary people to run it top to bottom. It is the 5th Largest employer in the world. Race hate is in your mind mate. 17 millions plus of us were called bigots and racist by you lot. doesn’t come into it. I have Black nephews. Tell which race is I hate out of all the different races you fool. We continue to hear one sided garbage. What about the poor women who get rapped or have Acid thrown in their faces, no matter their race. The hate comes from you mate, the fact that you lost, in a Democratic vote. I voted for a Common market. Denmark, Ireland and Britain joined the EEC in 1973, after Charles de Gaulle’s resignation in 1969. Under the Labour Prime Minister, Harold Wilson, there was a UK referendum on continued membership of the EEC in 1975. The electorate voted ‘Yes’ by 67.2% to 32.8% to stay in Europe. I was one young man who was old enough to vote, and I voted to remain. I have been around long enough to know the consequences of that vote since. We were initially taken into the Common Market illegally as it was at the time anyway, but the lies that were spewed at that time by remainders were unbelievable, and I was sucked in. Am I wiser since then. Yes I believe so. I am now 61. In reality, I was young, and I believe everything the fairy god mother politicians put before us. The biggest lie was about how Britain may become short of food if we didn’t stay in it. I believe that lie. Mate, Politicians are the biggest liers on the planet. Corbyn was a life long leaver, life long mate. You don’t suddenly become a remainder, “do you” Bob Geldof a remainer at the time of the recent vote now says he thinks Britain should leave. And here we are, a blumin Tory remainder typically weak Mrs May negotiating to leave. And Richard Branson has beggard off to his privately owned island in the sun. It was all about his own personal business and wealth for him, not what’s best for us, the every day working man. The EU as it is today is a bunch of unelected cronies. That’s the truth of it. Democracy is at stake here. In so far as Growth, you are living in cloud cookoo land if you believe any country can have eternal growth. The unemployment rate has tumbled over the past four years from eight per cent in January 2013 to a 40-year low of 4.3 per cent. UK GDP was still 2% bigger in the first quarter of 2017 than a year earlier. UK GDP was still 2% bigger in the first quarter of 2017 than a year earlier. The EU’s economy was 2.1% bigger on the year while the eurozone was up 1.9%. We can all quote growth figures etc etc, but Democracy must come first, no matter what, for if you don’t believe that, then I tell you, watch out, because it will mean your vote doesn’t matter, and that my friend, is very dangerous indeed.

      • DaveWigan

        Dead right

    • DaveWigan

      Look mate, there are no fraudulent claims made by us who wanted Brexit for many years long before the Blair and Camerson TWINS. The Common Market which we did vote for has morphed into some unelected EU parliament. Its a joke, they are getting paid handsomely and laughing at everyone. And now they want an EU army lol. Which coincidently the remain campaign lied about. The EU is swamped in rules and regulations. And then take a look at Greece. All gone quiet over there, and the Cypriot government that Stole money from its own peoples savings, and the EU said nothing. Spanish Police dragging women out of polling stations in Catalonia. Imagine if a British government had done that. Its outrageous. If you leave the UK ya pays ya money and ya take ya chance. Don’t come cribbing to us when the shit hits the fans, waving ya British passport at us, not EU then are ya !!

      • alan851603

        The unelected EU parliament gave me a Green vote on the basis of PR which greatly exceeds the value of my FPTP vote in a Brexited UK. WIll you be personally voting Green to compensate me for stealing my voice?

        • DaveWigan

          I wouldn’t vote Green is you paid me in GREEN shield stamps. It used to mean something, but is just another minority hijacked by the left

    • Pete House

      what like when kinnock wet to btussels to quell corruption.it got bloody worse!!!

  • TLCh

    Totally with Graham on this. The Brexit campaign was purely propaganda not based on information or even solidly researched predictions. Plus, who knows how many of the Leave voters regretted their decision once they got a better idea of the potential consequences after the event.

    • Cecilia Killman

      I have only heard of an increase in people wishing they had chosen Leave .. These are Remain voters who say they are now glad to be coming out of the EU. This referendum has brought much information to light about the corrupt European Union which otherwise we would not have known about. We understand far more than some Remainers gave Leave voters credit for. It was so much easier to pick up on the Liberals very insulting statement that Leavers did not understand what they were voting for when indeed, we wonder if Remain voters knew why they wanted to stay. I never saw such a bad show of poor losers in my whole life in any democracy and I have lived many more years than some of you. One of the man reaon or th chge t Lee is the mass immigration which countries cannot cope with and which is changing the face, raditions and laws of our country. The law is not fair anymore and it took time to realise that even our laws have been, and still are, ruled by the EU. I could go on and on but I guess I answered. I along with many have had remain voters saying they voted remain but were glad we were leaving the EU

    • Robin

      See my reply above to walkinthepark77. Pure speculation on everyone’s part….both Leave and Remain. I can point out several things the Remain side campaigned on that were purely speculative. None of the leave voters I have spoken too say they would change their vote either, so again it is pure speculation that any of them would change their mind or regret their decision. I do know one person who voted to remain saying they would change their vote, but neither can be representative of the majority, so why even raise the question? Let me put it into clear concise English for everyone…Politicians voted to give the people a referendum on leaving or remaining a member of the EU. The result was around 52% in favour of leaving and around 48% for remaining. What part of that does a lot of people not seem to understand? Those people who didn’t vote at all, those who now say they would change their minds etc. is completely irrelevant. That’s what a referendum or an election or voting for something is all about. You vote, you get a result, you abide by the result. Simple!

      • Alan Smart

        Speculation which as time passes appear to be coming true. I repeat you havent actually stated what lies were told by remain.

      • DaveWigan

        Yup that’s how Democracy works.

      • alan851603

        The part I don’t understand is that the people who didn’t vote should be counted as Remainers. Only a minority voted to leave, so why are we doing it?

    • DaveWigan

      We voted Leave and we know why. Get over it mate. LIFE GOES ON.

      • alan851603

        I wish you’d taken that attitude when we were still in and committed to the EU project.

        • DaveWigan

          Alan, I’m 62, I voted to stay in a Common Market in in 1975, after Ted Heath took the country into the the Common in 1973. Trust me there was much scaremongering on behalf of remain, and I held my hand up and, as not many would I said I’d voted for it. There interesting thing was though, you could hardly find a soul who would admit to voting to stay in it when all the food prices shot up up etc. But I will be quite frank Alan, I voted for Common market, not this unelected EU we have today. The reason we had the Brexit vote, is because of EU arrogance, and the thing is Alan, their attitude has not changed. Alan, do you still think I have an attitude. The EU has become a very protectionist block. It hikes a 10% tariff on all good imported into it. We do more trade with the outside world than we do with European countries within the EU. Britain’s are being stung as we are the 2nd largest contributor. Our fishing industry destroyed while France is protected under the common agricultural policy. If I have an attitude, its a gudun mate,44 years of it since 1973.

          • alan851603

            Dave;

            The EU has a better voting system and is more democratic than our Victorian FPtP shambles.

            Can you clarify how you think the EU is undemocratic and how going back to a worse system will fix that?

            It irrelevant if you wouldn’t vote Green. The proof of the pudding is that UKIP actually has MEPs in the EU and not in the UK.

            I agree the Greens are playing to the left too much. When we look at the actual science, Green policies are far too weak.

            Cheers,
            Alan.

  • Averyius

    Austrian citizens living abroad may vote by post in Austrian presidential and parliamentary elections, as well as referendums, for an unlimited time after leaving Austria. They must enrol on a dedicated foreign voters’ register and must renew their registration every ten years.[4]
    I live in Austria and am still a British citizen. I was not allowed to vote in any referendum in the UK which effects my status in Austria. I have heard and read so much about bi-lateral agreements between the UK and Austria. There should be an EU law which deals with all EU citizens equally. Why is it then that an Austrian citizen can always vote from outside Austria in any elections and referenda and a British citizen can not? This is not fair and not reciprocal. The over 1 million British citizens living in the EU should have had the right to vote in the EU referendum. One person talks about wisdom as you get older. What about the wisdom gained by travelling and living abroad and seeing a bigger picture and losing the narrow inbred thinking that comes from only living in your own back yard and among your own people and culture and speaking only one language and hearing only that point of view? The EU is a good and progressive idea. We share a common basic culture and history and should go on helping one another and understanding one another and avoid any more armed conflicts which result from distrust and rivalry and feelings of elitism.

    • Ruth Jackson

      British citizens living abroad Were allowed to vote, ..but only if they had lived abroad for LESS than 15 years! If they chose not to that was their right. And what utter clap trap about broadening your horizons…the EU isn’t progressive in the sense you refer to…its main aim is a “federation of the people’s” soverignty is an evil they want rid of ..we don’t share a common basic culture nor history..each country has its own culture and history..we have always helped one another (2 world wars ring any bells) and have an understanding yet stood as individual countries for many many years. You have just also insulted the British people with your “inbred” comment, that’s a narrow minded view if very there was one! As for travel..well that will continue ..sorry to say that you have a very blinkered ideal about the EU as it is now…it was never voted for or elected by anyone..it evolved in the 90s ..it is no longer fit for purpose !

      • Averyius

        Whats with the 15 years? Why not 5 or 10 or 20? I have the absolute right to vote on things going on in my country of origin and where my family still are no matter how long I have lived in another part of the EU or anywhere else. That is the whole point, there is n´t supposed to be any difference between all EU citizens in that respect. The two world wars were due to perceived differences and the rivalry and distrust that a united Europe would work against. This is the idea started by Woodrow Wilson with the League of Nations and later by Richard von Coudenhove-Kalergi and the Pan European movement which was supported by many famous people like Albert Einstein, Sigmund Freud, Thomas mann, Otto von Hapsburg and many more. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_von_Coudenhove-Kalergi
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paneuropean_Union
        My Grandfather was a Bugle Major in the Kings Royal Rifle Corp and was bayoneted by German soldier in WW1. He died decades later as a result of his wounds because of the inadequate medical treatments of the time. I best friend here in Vienna is German and he is like a brother to me! My ex-wife is Austrian and my daughter was born here.

        No common culture and history? Maybe you should study European languages, history, archaeology and anthropology like me. So Britannia was not part of the Roman Empire was it? So therefore most English vocabulary is not clearly Latin in origin? The British peoples did not wander into north west Europe thousands of years ago? There is no link to the rest of the Celtic people in Europe? There was no migration of German tribes into what is now England? No Viking influence? Where did the Angles and Saxons come from and why is the other half of modern day English actually a mixture of old Norse, German and French with some other languages as well? The list of things which are clearly of the same origin and which have influenced one another over centuries is endless. The Royal family of the UK ARE GERMAN!!!!

        So what is evil with a federal state? But it is not written anywhere that that is what the EU currently wants? I think the British would still have fish and chips and be the best at making it as well as all the other countries keeping their unique regional traditions and specialities. I would welcome a federal sate. So the USA for example is evil and does not work? Eh! There are so many differences between parts of the USA in dialects, languages and ethnicity. Funny how it works but somehow a federal Europe cannot or would not? I certainly do not regard my many “foreign” (E.U.) friends as being evil and certainly not my daughter who is Austrian and born here in Vienna. Only a dictatorship is evil. A person has to have a grander picture which you do not seem to grasp. i have mentioned past historic and pre-historic commonalities and relationships between today´s UK and other European peoples but equally one must look ahead into the future. For example how do you deal with a Russian invasion of Europe which could happen if you have a patchwork of totally independent countries? Is there a guarantee that the USA would definitely help? Nope! I don´t think so. In fact they are sick fed up with not being able to talk to a single united Europe and having to play big brother coming to our rescue. Think about the European Space Agency and future projects like the colonisation of Mars. Only a united Europe can work together to achieve great things and protect the environment etc.

        The EU as an evil empire? Have a look in the internet just how evil the British Empire was and the atrocities committed by us! Funny my parents, grandmother and teachers conveniently forget to ever mention such things and always portrayed us as being the good guys.
        Please look up on the internet the many websites which explain how the EU works. https://www.google.at/search?q=how+the+eu+works+pdf&oq=How+the+EU+works&aqs=chrome.2.69i57j69i65j0l4.22913j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8. You will see it is perfectly democratic. The politicians you elect in the UK are members of the council of ministers and parliament. You and all EU citizens can vote for the members of parliament. Parliament is gaining in it´s powers and influence. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/may/20/eu-democratic-deficit
        The UK government in London has thousands more un-elected civil servants than the EU which is what the European commissioners are. They make suggested policies. The council and parliament may or may not agree and pass them.

        Only a dictatorship can be seen as evil and the EU and future United states of Europe is not and will not be a dictatorship. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/7def603f00b55397ef05a1e064ab28527d383336f8139027aa426105b4b35aeb.png

        Insulting the “British” people eh? Who are they? Maybe the equally large or even greater number of non EU citizens, non white Christian people ( Christianity is something we also have in common with other EU citizens such as the Polish who saved Europe from becoming a muhammadan world ruled by the Turks back in 1683 right here in Vienna!) from the other side of the planet who have been flooding in for decades? No I only insult my enemies. It is a kind of closed system when a small group of people just sit in the same place and discuss things and do things only there and amongst themselves.

        I certainly hope freedom of travel does continue without very pesky passport controls and someone checking my luggage every inch of the way as well as paying with the same coin as it once was throughout the Roman Empire. I love being able to just cycle down to Bratislava or drive to Italy or Germany without interference. And I do not want to maybe now have to go back to the stressful system of applying and paying for a residence and work permit every year.

        It was very short sighted of anyone back in 1973 when the UK did indeed vote for EEC membership not to think it would eventually evolve further. I was only 14 and my school friends and I were in favour of it and we certainly hoped it would bring about a United States of Europe. I do not think the EU has outgrown it´s usefulness. The World and Europe is evolving and the EU, Pan Europe or whatever it may be called in future is just starting to get going! Like Arnie said in Terminator “I´ll be back!”. I mean by that, that the UK will be back asking to re join. Mark my words!

      • florrie webster

        The Brit living in Austria should have been allowed to vote. Because it could very well affect him .

        • DaveWigan

          Don’t talk crap. That’s like saying I could vote in America on their presidential elections if I was American and living here in the UK. As a UK citizen born here, I can’t go and vote in the other 26 member countries lol. Get real Florrie

          • Martin Cahn

            Americans living in the UK can vote in their elections….

          • DaveWigan

            Yes, actually they do to some extent, but really in all honesty I don’t believe it’s right that they can. How can it be right for anyone to vote in a country they no longer live in. If I change my Union, I cannot continue to vote in it. If I leave the Labour Party membership, I cannot continue to vote in it.
            However the rights as a U.S. citizen to vote in federal elections and to live where I they please is the case, but citizens who live in Washington, D.C. not have a right to vote for Congress?

            Why do U.S. citizens in Puerto Rico, Guam, American Samoa, and the U.S. Virgin Islands have no right to vote for Congress or for President?

            How odd is it that they retain their federal voting rights if they emigrated to North Korea but would lose them if they moved to D.C. or a U.S. territory. But courts have ruled consistently that it is constitutional to deprive the latter citizens—who are not “people of a state”—of any vote for Congress or President. Since that is constitutional, then it would be constitutional for a state to stop letting US citizens vote here if they emigrated to another country. And since that is constitutional, Congress has no power to force a state to do otherwise.
            The Yanks are crazy, they have got that wrong.

        • DaveWigan

          Bollocks, I can’t vote in Australia. I don’t live there. If you live in Australia permanently then you should become a citizen, like my brother has. Of course if you reside here and are on a 2 years break and coming back, of course you should get a vote, but not if your staying. People who stay in other countries have gone their for a reason, usually because they don’t wish to be a part of the country they were once born in. Most including my Brother stick two fingers up when they leave. NO, you can’t have a fecking vote. Goodness me, the world is going mad. You left, you’ve gone, enjoy. Why should some DICK who wants a vote sat in his Villa in sunny Cyprus vote on matters that affect me in rainy Wigan. Dear Lord.

      • J Rice

        Why were Maltese and Cypriots allowed to vote, and not EU citizens who actually live, work, pay taxes, own property in UK????

        • DaveWigan

          I have no clue, but they SHOULD NOT have been allowed to vote on matters here in this country in my opinion. You should vote where you live. I can’t vote in Scotland or Spain or France. I can’t vote in Wales or Northern Ireland, and why the feck should I, I don’t live there. Dear Lord, where is this madness coming from lol.

      • DaveWigan

        Hi Ruth, Thank you for putting your view, I remember some guy from the home office travelling around certain countries informing Brits they could vote in the election is the had a National Insurance number, which in my opinion was quite wrong. Why should some swanking pensioner living in his cosy little home in Spain have any say on how a country they don’t even live in is run, a country they chose to leave. Is it not enough that we pay their Pensions. How on earth could any of them understand our situation here. Before Merkel opened the German boarder, claiming they were short of ‘YOUNG WORKERS” opening the doors to any tom dick of mohammed , without vetting was a crazy idea. She virtually admits that now. The woman is a fool, as those migrants will at some point get OLDER, and what then, import more !! And then there’s Spain with Spain with 25% youth unemployment, why did she not encourage those to move, give them houses and free languages lessons etc. That would have solved Merkels problem and fixed another problem in Spain. Not that difficult really.

    • Robin

      I agree that there SHOULD be many things. The plain and simple truth is that there are some things that are OK for some people whilst at the same time there are some things that aren’t with others. This is not an ideal world for those who want everything their way. We can petition, protest and campaign, but like Lincoln said, you can never please all of the people all of the time and what suits one person will always annoy another!

    • DaveWigan

      OH BEHAVE.
      I choose to live in the UK. I am English and was Born here. I have travelled all around the world, and lived in Australia for a short time for what it’s worth. I also owned a property in Spain. The Spanish did nothing but TAX me heavily one way or another. I paid all my Taxes and even now as we speak they their rotten Government retain 3% of the properties value in case I owe them money. If the vendor is due a refund after taxes have been settled, it can take years to get paid (see link to forum discussions below for more information on how long it takes to get refunded). The Urbanisations are controlled by non elected committee’s who have recently been given powers to behave like a Junta, and can fine you any figure they see fit, if they deem unfairly you break tiny rules I may never see this money again. As for EU it is already EU law in place to deal with EU Citizens. Nothing in that regard will change here, except that the UK will have the right to VET and ensure anyone coming into our country is not ILLEGAL. The EU is not Democratic. Most of those people running it are not Elected representatives, The EU behaves like a Junta. The Original Idea of the Common Market was a good idea. An EU Block run by Elites from anywhere is a Bad Idea. Hitler had a similar idea. He was a National SOCIALIST. Basically similar to the Scottish National party. They are in the main, Socialist, with a BUT, they are also Nationalist. The Common Market should for the foreseeable future, stuck with seven countries. It was inevitable that certain bodies within this unelected EU would abuse their power, and they do just that. The Common market was set up for free trade. Open boarders have cost many lives, and massive disruption to certain countries. I have been to Austria, is is a beautiful country. I could go to all European country’s long before the “EU” We have seen huge problems caused by not vetting certain migrants. Britain is the first to help genuine cases, and there is no doubt their are some, but many of those migrants where just economic migrants, and they should be Vetted. I saw big strapping LADS wearing designer gear and using Iphones among many of the migrant queues on TV. They cannot just walk into any country in the world. It isn’t allowed under International law. Also Cameron begged the EU to change, and he was completely rejected. He went round all 27 countries, and still he was rejected, and Mekel, Junker and Co were at the heart of the problem. Finally, our people who live here, who pay the taxes here, had the right to vote. I can’t vote in Australia any more, because I left there. I can’t go and vote in Spain, and I certainly cant vote in Austria, so stop cribbing about having not voting here in our country when you live in another country. We live here, NOT YOU. We had a one man one woman Democratic Vote, and wo-betide Tersea May a remainer, or Jeremy Corbyn ( A life long leaver , reluctantly now says he’s á remainder) wo-betide these people should they even try to go against the Vote to leave. Hell will break out, and the longer term ramification for Democracy are DIRE. The world is watching. Russia and China are watching our Parliament. Lets wait and see if Democracy PREVAILS as it should, for the consequences for anything else do not bear thinking about.

      • Martin Cahn

        Free movement does not affect the migrants you are talking about. What gives you that idea? We are not in Schengen and have complete control over our borders except for an obligation to allow EU citizens in as long as they do not threaten our security (yes, we have the power to remove EU citizens on security grounds – but we have rarely used it). Your discourse here appears to be verging on racist.

        In addition the EU is more democratic than our own country in that legislation has to be approved by the Councils of Ministers (elected politicians) – with more than a simple majority – for many issues by unanimity – and also by the European Parliament which is elected by proportional representation which is more democratic than the system we have in this country. The bureaucracy is its civil service – like we have a civil service too. Administrations cannot operated without them. This idea of it being unelected bureaucrats making decisions is simply evidence that the people who say it have negligible knowledge on the matter.

        • DaveWigan

          “You think I’m boarder line racist” lmfao I doubt you know what racist actually means.

          You forgot to mention bigot mate. Last time I looked, in order to be a racist you had to hate a whole race of people. So which race of people do you think I hate. lol. Well the Human race places itself at the top of the pile every single time, often without much consideration to the environment of Wildlife. If I were a God, and I’m not lol, I would start again with the Human race. We are continually feeding the parasites, lawyers politicians, estate agents, bankers etc, should I go on, many who claim to call it work but have never done a decent hard days work that produces anything in their life.

          So tell me why has the EU never been AUDITED?

          The Commission is a team of Commissioners, one appointed by the elected government of each Member State.

          UK Commissioners have been former Ministers (Leon Brittain, Peter Mandelson, Roy Jenkins). Oh my God !! Enough said.

          Then we have Prime Minister David Cameron who put “LORD” Hill’s name forward, on 15 July 2014, to be the next British EU Commissioner, upon which Lord Hill resigned from the Cabinet. On 10 September 2014, ‘President” Juncker ex Prime Minister of Belgium appointed Hill as the European Commissioner for Financial Stability, Financial Services and Capital Markets Union. HOW CAN THIS BE DEMOCRATIC.? And God only knows who the other commissioners are in the other 26 Countries? Frightening !!

          And now we have Julian King .

          A so called seasoned diplomat who knows Brussels well. He has served as chief of staff to two former British commissioners, Peter Mandelson and Catherine Ashton. Between 2004-08 he was the UK’s representative on the EU’s political and security committee. He is married to Lotte Knudsen, a high-flying civil servant in the EU’s diplomatic service. All part of the good old Establishment the British people hate. Of course democracy is sometime difficult to achieve, we know that, but that system as it stands is anything but. I am not saying that our own system is better, but at least we will have the power to change that too. The EU is just an extension of systems already in place, more bureaucrats to keep in health well paid fat cat jobs, and it wants even greater powers. Don’t tell me the EU Army hasn’t now been mentioned.

          • Martin Cahn

            I repeat, the EU commissioners are civil servants who cannot get anything done without the accord of the Councils of Ministers and European Parliament. They may also be capable organisers. I have actually met one other Commissioner who you don’t mention, Neil Kinnock. Yes he is an elite if you regard being married to a school teacher and representing a mining constituency as elite. He is a yes, an erudite intellectual, with a passion for theatre, but also has an undoubted organisational ability which managed to bring together what at the time seemed an irredeemably split Labour Party. Seems quite a good background to me for such an organisational role. I simply want competent people governing me. Look at the Coop Bank if you want to see what happens when we don’t remember that. At present we clearly don’t have competent people in charge of the Government who keep to their promises or, if it proves that they cannot do so as is proving to be the case, have the humility to change tack. It seems that we don’t agree and won’t agree on that.

          • DaveWigan

            That’s funny, Neil Kinnock was recorded at a private meeting this week when he called on Jeremy Corbyn to step down. So much for reuniting the Labour Party.

            However, not to digress. You mean I didn’t mention, Kinnock, Neil Gordon (b 1942) Baron Kinnock of Bedwellty, MP and Labour Party leader. Am I wrong?

            My Dad was a Miner in Golbourne and my family lived in a rented miners house. My Mother was also a Teacher. She worked 43 years in total, her first year for “free” to get a job. She bought our first house, not my Dad. But hey ho, so what.

            Kinnock initially supported the party’s policy calling for the unilateral nuclear disarmament of Britain and the removal of all U.S. nuclear weapons and bases from British soil. But then changed his mind lol. By 1989 Kinnock had persuaded his party to abandon its radical policies on disarmament and large-scale nationalization. So much for socialism.

            We know Kinnock stepped down from his post as party leader later that year because he lost the general election in 1992. In 1995 he retired from the House of Commons to become a member of the European Commission (GRAVY TRAIN) and served as its vice president from 1999 to 2004. Kinnock was named a life peer in 2005. What more do you want to say. Such a hypocrite eh. A life long Pier (ANOTHER GRAVY TRAIN) I don’t doubt he’s a nice bloke, the son of a miner, bet he loves to get that bit in. Yeah, I use that line all the time in Wigan a mining time. It cons none lol Just joking re the using the line.
            People should be judged on who they are, not who or what their parents.

            So no, I would not trust yes man, get as much as I can Kinnock to be my mouthpiece for democracy or anything else.

            The EU is a corrupt nightmare

        • Pete House

          martin cahn you speak bollos

          • Martin Cahn

            Well what have I said above that is wrong? We are not in Schengen. We can control non-EU citizens as much as we wish. His big strapping lads may be able to get into Schengen, but not the UK since they are stopped at Calais. It is a British issue and not an EU one. What I state about EU governance is simply fact – you can check it yourself on the EU website or any textbook on the EU. Whereas you can get matters through the UK Parliament with the support of under 40% of the people (with a party winning an overall majority in Parliament), EU decisions need the support of a supermajority of representatives of the Union – on many issues by unanimity. So where am I mistaken?

          • Pete House

            you sound as if we have border control.we dont as long as we have a border with europe!

  • Sam Carruthers

    I voted leave from a backpackers Australia (the other side of the world). Many other backpackers moaned at the result but couldn’t be bothered to vote. That’s their fault and goes to show that the fact of the matter is they just didn’t care enough. So you can hardly put them in the Remain box anyway. If they actually cared they would have read more about it and likely would have turned to voting Leave.

  • June Helm

    If there were another referendum now that we know about what is happening what would be the probable outcome?

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